China Perspective

—An interview with longtime China observer Dr. Robert Kuhn

◆Text by Liu Haile

Dr. Robert Kuhn during an interview with China Pictorial at his hotel in Beijing. by Liu Rong

An American investment banker and a longtime China observer, Dr. Robert Lawrence Kuhn became a household name in China as the author of The Man Who Changed China: The Life and Legacy of Jiang Zemin, the 2005 bestseller in China. In offering this unusually intimate and comprehensive personal and political biography, Dr. Kuhn demonstrated that Jiang Zemin’s life personifies the history of contemporary China. Subsequent that work, he traveled around China for four years and interviewed officials at all levels for his new book, How China’s Leaders Think: The Inside Story of China’s 30 Years Reform and What This Means for the Future. The work provides great insight into the China of the past, the present, and what the future holds. On a May afternoon, we visited Dr. Kuhn at his hotel in Beijing.

China Pictorial: Dr. Kuhn, I read The Man Who Changed China, as well as the Chinese-version of your recently published How China’s Leaders Think: The Inside Story of China’s 30 Years Reform and What This Means for the Future. When will the English-version of the latter come out?

Kuhn: Probably this summer. I’m not quite sure because this is much larger and richer. Even though the Chinese version needs to be translated, the speed of Chinese publishing is much faster. The material for the Chinese version is more historically-oriented than of the future. But the English version looks more into the present and future. So, I’ve done additional research since this book came out, which will also be added to the English version. For instance, I visited Guangdong Province to interview Wang Yang [secretary of the provincial Party committee of Guangdong] and Zhu Xiaodan [secretary of the municipal Party committee of Guangzhou].

CP: I notice that you have interviewed a great many people and carried out much research for your new book, and that you also have many other affairs with which you contend. So, Dr. Kuhn, how do you do both so well?

Kuhn: I can tell you that when I write a book, it’s a very different part of my life. Maybe it will take three or four years, but it’s very conceptive. You must maintain great mental focus, consistency and style. Most of the writing I do is at night. The time I often write is at 3:00-4:00 a.m. and 6:00-7:00 p.m., and sometime I work eight hours a night. It is very hard, and this sort of lifestyle lasts for many months. I take writing as a very serious matter, because it must be permanent and accurate. Every word has different meaning, because I deal with sensitive subjects, like Chinese politics, people and religion. Perhaps somebody doesn’t like everything I write about China, and some may disagree with me, but what I write is what I really believe. I know a lot of people will criticize me, particularly in the West. But I feel passionate when I determine to do what probably I haven’t done before, particularly in communicating how Chinese leaders think. The West has given a label to Chinese leaders, and they think all Chinese leaders think exactly the same. I try to show the diversity of Chinese leaders and how they think in different areas – not only in politics and the economy, but also in science, health care, religion, the military, culture and the media. We have to show how complex and diverse China really is. That’s the true story of China.

CP: As you said, China is a complex country and thus cannot be properly interpreted in a way of “blind men feeling the elephant.” How can you guarantee that what you write accurately depicts the true China?

Kuhn: Truth is a philosophic term. To some extent, everyone’s truth is different. I really do want to explore the real depth. One thing I appreciate is being able to speak with many, many leaders – senior leaders and middle-level leaders. By the way, what I do is to show all parts of the elephant even though we were all blind. In this book, especially its English-version, I try to show diverse areas. The more complex we are, the closer we get to the truth. What I try to do is depict the diversity of stories, from the role of women, bankruptcy, corruption, imbalance, pollution – all the problems and all the benefits, as well. The West thinks of China in simplistic terms: No freedom of speech, Internet censorship, blocking of websites and no religious freedom. But each story has complexity. It is true in the sense that I communicate what the leaders say. I bring together all these leaders and let them speak to the world, and let the world see their diversity. You may disagree with what these leaders say, but that is what they’re really saying. And I offer my own perspective, as well. I think revealing the diversity of leaders in different areas gets closer to the truth.

CP: I believe the purpose of your writing is to promote mutual understanding between China and the United States. In your book, you mention that Chinese and American people interpret differently the truth of the US-led bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia in 1999. In your opinion, how best may mutual understanding between the two nations be developed?

Kuhn: I used that tragedy to reveal that Americans don’t understand China. After the bombing occurred, Chinese students went to the US embassy and surrounded it. The American media said that the Chinese government encouraged the students to do so, and controlled the protest. They had proof that the government rented buses to take students from colleges and universities like Peking University and Tsinghua University to the US embassy. But what I learned by speaking with Chinese officials like Wang Guangya is that the government wanted to limit the protest. If the government let the thousands of students walk from their universities to the US embassy, thousands more would join them. This was completely misinterpreted by the American media. So, this was a fascinating way to demonstrate that you can see the same fact, but arrive at exactly the wrong conclusion. On the issue of whether the bombing was accidental or intentional, 90 percent of Chinese – maybe 99 percent – believe it was intentional, but perhaps 80 percent of Americans think it was an accident. Here is my role on the issue. What I do in this book is to present each view as accurately as possible. So, readers can see the facts everyone agrees on, as well as the Chinese interpretation and the American interpretation. Then they can come to their own conclusion.

CP: In this book, you review events occurring during China’s 30 years of reform. Which story most impressed you?

Kuhn: It’s a difficult question to answer, because each carries its own emotion. I think the example I used about the bombing of the Chinese embassy is a very important story because it shows the complexity of a real tragedy, as well as the difference between the opinions of Americans and Chinese, what leaders think and what I think. I like stories with that sort of complexity. Some of my favorite parts are about China’s reform that ordinary people have seldom thought about, such as the nation’s approach to religion, health care and culture. I met many wonderful figures and learned about their lives. I think this brings me the greatest enjoyment. It not only tells the stories of reform, but also personalizes the reform with individuals. Another aspect which to me is important, is deeply tracing the political philosophy of Chinese senior leaders, which some Westerners think of as a waste of time. To me it is important to follow Deng Xiaoping’s theory, Jiang Zemin’s political theory of the “Three Represents,” and Hu Jintao’s “Scientific Outlook on Development.” So, I try hard to show the world the importance of Scientific Outlook on Development. It is important for China’s current policies and political philosophy to be understood. They give the whole story coherence.

CP: In the course of your work, you have interviewed a great many senior Chinese officials, and even the main title of your book about China’s reform is How China’s Leaders Think. Can you in brief explain how those Chinese officials think?

Kuhn: The first generality that I like to point out is that there is no generality. There used to be generality, and everybody said the same thing using almost the same words, but today more represent diversity. I’d like to say that now Chinese trend to diversity, and they have more freedom to express themselves in different ways. Even in the government, there are many different opinions. If you ask the generality of Chinese leaders’ way of thinking, I used four concepts in the first part of my book: pride, stability, responsibility and vision.

CP: Your book about Jiang Zemin was one of the best-sellers of the year, and your current book is also selling well in China. Many readers are looking forward to your next work. Some predict that will be about Chinese President Hu Jintao. Is this true and, if so, when will it come out?

Kuhn: What I can tell you is that my current task is to finish the English version. The English version includes much about President Hu Jintao. Some like to think what they will do in the future, but I like to concentrate on what I’m doing now and try to do the best I can. Right now, my job is to finish the English version, which focuses a great deal on President Hu.

CP: At the end of your book, you talk about China’s future. In recent years, some foreigners have expressed concern that China will pose a threat to the rest of the world, at least economically. But since the recent global financial crisis, some look to China as the potential savior of the world economy. From the perspective of a senior investment banker, how do you evaluate the impact of the global financial crisis on China’s future?

Kuhn: This is a quite important question today. The financial crisis is hurting China, as it is hurting other countries. China’s role in the world became more and more important, not only because of its rich resources, but also because of its deep involvement in international affairs. After the crisis everybody’s situation worsened, but the West came down more, so China and the West are closer than they were. Because of this, China has more responsibility, not only for itself, but also for the international community. China can’t take good care of itself without taking care of the world, because now everything is interdependent.